Poll

The Ventures were never popular in Europe because:

Few people had herd of them compared to The Shadows.
2 (28.6%)
Hank Marvin played better than Bob, Gerry, or Nokie.
0 (0%)
A pink strat looked better than a Mosrite.
0 (0%)
It was easier to learn to play like Hank than like Bob, Gerry or Nokie.
1 (14.3%)
Ventures records were unavailable in Europe.
1 (14.3%)
The Ventures never toured Europe.
1 (14.3%)
The Ventures were an instrumental cover band.  None of their originals were hits..
1 (14.3%)
All of the above.
1 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Voting closed: August 10, 2012, 02:47:27 pm

Author Topic: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows  (Read 1654 times)

Offline wstagner

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Re: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2012, 11:07:34 am »
Whose Riky Nelson?  Is that Willie's sun?

Offline Gandy Dancer

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Re: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2012, 05:11:51 pm »
I've never understood this myself. They weren't completely unknown, Jeff Beck for one has admitted to being influenced by them. They certainly had a much "wilder" sound than The Shadows. As far as "Apache" goes I'll admit The Shadows version blows The Ventures one away but I think Ingmann put them both to shame.  ;D

Offline geoff1711

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Re: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2013, 03:09:25 am »
When the Ventures had hits in the UK with Walk Don't Run, in the charts at the same time as John Barry, I was still at school and everything American was very cool, a friend at the time, who's home always seemed a bit Yankie ( they had a fridge, washing machine and his mum had died blonde hair! which where I was brought up was pretty unusual then) summed it up by saying:

America - Coffee, gum, John Wayne!! yeah!

England - Tea, polite old ladies

So on that basis alone they should have had hit after hit, but their sound is different to the Shadows, The Ventures sound is more "head down and go for it" and along the way timing gets a bit lost as is clarity, The Shadows original image over here was of gritty coffee bars and post war Britain still a grim place to look at because of all the bombed out buildings still to be demolished and rebuilt, they had a new sound and a precision of style, they may have played similar tunes just in a different way.

Don't forget though that within a couple of years Beatlemania had started and The Shadows and Cliff's image changed from mean rebellious kids to cuddly family entertainers, and now it was the likes of The Rolling Stones that made your dad foam at the mouth.

Surf music in the USA didn't really go out of fashion until Hendrix and flower power.

And to us Brits on some of the later tracks with that bloody awful (and supposed to be sexy??) growl one of the guys kept doing was just plain cringeworthy, it was bad enough first time round with Roy Orbison on Pretty Woman but rehashed by The Ventures a number of years on - not for me!

50 years on and both bands have tracks I like and tracks I don't, but there are more Shadows tracks I like than Ventures - the reason? The Shadows playing expertise and technique  seemed to improve with age, The Ventures style stayed the seem but seemed to get a bit sloppy.

One odd thing though, years back Hawaii 50 was a massive TV hit running for years, I only found out long after the show finished that it was a Ventures tune, now that has to be poor marketing on behalf of their management.

Geoff

Offline wstagner

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Re: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2013, 09:57:26 am »
The Ventures style stayed the seem but seemed to get a bit sloppy.

Geoff, can you be more specific in 2 ways:

1)When you think this occur and
2)What specifically about the sound and/or playing.

Then I'll better be able to comment (or not).   ;D

Offline geoff1711

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Re: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2013, 01:17:38 pm »
A typo there Walt, seem should be same.

Re when the Ventures got sloppy can't really say I hadn't followed instro music for years, but got back into it 10 or so years ago and bought a lot of CDs some Ventures compillations amongst them and on the 3 disc Walk Don't Run set some of the tracks just seem as if they've lost their way a little, they sounded like re-recordings, not the originals.

On the other hand it could be that their style had changed to suit the Japan market where they are big.

When I heard them in the 60's it was Wow!! this set was just lack lustre - and that growl - just don't go there!!

Similar to over here elderly chaps ( like me ) who play Shadows tributes do the Shadows Walk (not me), it looked good on the then teenage Shadows in the late 50's early 60's but 50 years later, in my view, it's best left to history.

Keep twanging

Heoff

Offline vibramute

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Re: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2013, 05:13:26 pm »
Geoff,

Firstly, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by 'growl'? I can't recall any Ventures tune that has an Orbison growl it. There are hoots, hollers and sound effects on a lot of Ventures tracks, but nothing like the famous Orbison growl in 'Pretty Woman'....

It seems like you are basing your observations on a few complation CD's, and to be fair, I'd probably draw the same conclusion if that's all the material I had available to me. There are plenty of stale moments in the Ventures catalogue (mostly when they were cranking out 'theme' albums), but I don't feel they slagged off when it came to performance or that they were particularly sloppy. They did a nice job handling the material thrown at them. Granted, they may have sounded a little 'square' on some of the harder, bluesy, psychedelic material in the late 60's, but the playing was always solid. You're not going to get a sense of virtuosity listening to them cover "Hang On Sloopy" (LOL) but if you dig a little deeper and listen to the albums (espeically during the McGee/Durrill era when they were writing some great originals) you'll hear some amazing ensemble playing that is a far cry from 'The McCoy"  ;) (Ventures fans will get that joke).
 
Another thing to consider, Nokie and Gerry were very accomplished guitarists when they joined the band, and while the did continue to grow as pickers (listen to either now, they are masters) they were good at playing just what the song called for at the time. They didn't really seem worried about showing off chops (which both men have in spades).

Lastly, let your ears be the judge: Listen to the Walk Don't Run (1960) LP, then The Ventures In Space ('64), then New Testament ('71). Hard to believe its the same group, but you'll have to acknowledge that they not only stayed fairly relevant, they improved as a band and individually as players.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 05:19:12 pm by vibramute »

Offline geoff1711

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Re: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2013, 05:40:47 pm »
Well I guess I'll have to take your word for it, I only have a few compilation albums, which are transfered to my iPod and they play in my car, I've certainly heard the growl on more than one track, but as the iPod is locked away in the glove box it's hard to see which track is playing when you're driving.

There's nothing wrong with the Ventures but their style is different to The Shadows, but in all fairness my taste has broadened and if I'm really honest there are plenty of other guitarists I like as much if not more: Gilmore, Moore, Knopfler, Trout, Santana and then of course there's always that nice Mr Clapton then there's messrs Keef and Ronnie and my favourite live band to see every Christmas the one and only Quo

All the best

Geoff

Offline harvey1954

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Re: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2014, 12:49:54 pm »
The Shadows did tour the States in 1959 with Cliff, even played Lubbock, TX which must have freaked out folk there when they saw Hank with a Strat. They released Apache on Atlantic, but Jorgan Ingman had the hit on Atco, Atlantic's sister label. I have often thought that Atlantic deliberately failed to promote the Shadows' version in order to throw Jerry a Wexler a hit on his Atco label. I thought the Ventures are playing live in England on the On Stage album? Was that just a lot of bunk? As for the Shadows vs. the Ventures, I love the Ventures (especially their Play Along records which as a teacher I appreciate). However, the Shadows had Jerry Lordan who wrote Apache and a number of other hits for them. They were also pretty good songwriters on their own (Cliff hits like Summer Holiday). The Ventures' songwriting never did much for me. I always thought they did better with covers. They also drifted into a formula mode towards the end of the 6ts (as would the Shadows).

Offline wstagner

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Re: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2014, 07:58:47 am »
To the best of OUR knowledge, The Ventures (as a band) have never performed in UK.

Nokie performed in Amsterdam some years back and a DVD was released called Nokie Live at the Sunhouse.
It's long outofprint but if you can find a copy it's wellworthit.

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Re: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2014, 09:46:33 am »
Greetings...newbie here.

I've been in contact with a Brit who's about the age when "Walk Don't Run" would have hit England's radio waves. I posted my cover of "Journey to the Stars" and his comment included the statement he was not familiar with the group....which I thought was....strange.

Offline geoff

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Re: New Poll--Ventures vs. Shadows
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2017, 02:50:42 am »
Hi, I'm new here, feeling shocked after listening to the band play Don Wilson's last tour, in Japan. (On YouTube)  The vocals were off-key, out of time and the guitar sound was poor, being reedy and thin. Sometimes Don sounded drunk, or ill.
I've been a fan since the early 60s, although preferring the Shadows.
Nokie Edwards on "I gotta woman" is beyond compare!

Geoff