Fans Of The Ventures
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wstagner on July 11, 2012, 02:47:27 pm
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Please take part in our fun little poll. Results will be intresting.
Today, July 14th, we added a question AND allowed you to change your vote.
So, if you've already voted, you might want to check how you voted and optionally change your vote.
Happy voting!
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Although I voted "few people heard of them compared to The Shadows," I also think the fact that they never toured the UK was also a big factor.
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Why do you think they didn't tour there?
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Have no idea, Walt.
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I think it was similar to why the Shadows didn't toor the US. Their records were not readily available in the USA so there was no reason to tour here. Kind of a catch 22 situation. The Beatles were popular in the UK 3 years before we'd even heard of them here. It was likely their record company that got things going for them here. I doubt Dolton/Liberty records had the resources let alone the European distribution.
But, I'm just guessing.
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Clever poll idea Walt.
For me #'s 2 & 3 are definetly out. Leaning
more to # 4 than anything else but be aware
I got a good chuckle out of a couple of the choices.
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Walt - Cliff & The Shads did a small US tour in the early 60's (1960 I think). I'm still surprised that The Shads and Cliff were not popular in the US after that with their unique sound. The Tornados managed it with Telstar, but never able to tour there because of a dispute regarding the singer they were backing at the time called Billy Fury. I was not alive in the 60's but I know that there were UK issues of most of The Ventures records so it should not have been a problem acquiring their records back then.
Malcolm.
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Ok, so what's your take on their lack of UK/Europe popularity back then?
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I would say that it was probably because of the popularity of The Shadows - even before Apache they were popular and well known, etc. as well as their success starting with Cliff in 1958. Also The John Barry 7 had the big hit with WDR which masked the Ventures version.
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Kinda like this guy "killin' it" for the Shads stateside:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMgRQRUbOLw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMgRQRUbOLw)
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Blimey, you Americans are brave raising this issue... ;D
Hope you don't have too many of the Shads fans reading this topic on this site!!
Many Shadows fans are brutally partisan, often really putting the Ventures down.
There used to be an old saying; 'comparisons are odious'...and another saying....'better to let sleeping dogs lie'!
p.s me? I'm a British born migrant to Australia, been down under for nearly 50 years, but I love BOTH bands and all the others too- including the Atlantics from Australia, who had a huge hit here in 1963 with their tune Bombora...and they are also still playing with three of the four original members...
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HaHa....brave, NO!
Brazen, YES!
Instigator, YES!
I visit the Shads 4um daily and I'm well-aware of what you say. I'm like you, I appreciate BOTH bands as I see them quite as different entities within the genre. I didn't have much appreciation for the Shads until I got my hands on the live 89 DVD. I much prefer live recordings of bands.
We have our "snobs" w/in the Ventures camp as well. 4 example...Bob Bogle, Nokie Edwards, Gerry McGee comparison. The Fender vs. Mosrite comparison. The Mel Taylor, Joe Barile, Leon Taylor comparison.
We all have our preferences. That's what recordings were made for. Pick your faves and just lissen.
You've given me an idea for next months poll tho, so thanks a bunche!
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I agree Walt, I also think the only real way to hear anything is a live performance...
So many tricks are possible when recording (those session players, and drop-ins and even more so with digital equipment) that watching and listening to a live performance is the best way to see and hear who can really play and who can't...although with the tricks available for live shows now (pitch correction for vocals, off stage techs modifying instrument sounds etc for example) even live shows can be a bit suspect!
Let's face it , all of the Ventures past and present, and all of the Shadows, were and/or are good musicians, and their gear was always good stuff (even if we couldn't afford it), and they played good well written tunes..why argue endlessly about details?
Too much anorak stuff kills enjoyment of the MUSIC...which is presumably why we're all here!
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I agree. And sometimes it's not good to get too close to your musical heroes. You might not like what you sea! ;)
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NEW POLL - WHY WAS JAMES BURTON MORE FAMOUS THAN THE VENTURES.
Television my friend. Ricky Nelson and the "The Ozzie and Harriett Show" put James Burton on the map in the UK with all of his string bending, and Quote Hank Marvine, "All of the steak he was eating."
oldlfogger
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Whose Riky Nelson? Is that Willie's sun?
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I've never understood this myself. They weren't completely unknown, Jeff Beck for one has admitted to being influenced by them. They certainly had a much "wilder" sound than The Shadows. As far as "Apache" goes I'll admit The Shadows version blows The Ventures one away but I think Ingmann put them both to shame. ;D
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When the Ventures had hits in the UK with Walk Don't Run, in the charts at the same time as John Barry, I was still at school and everything American was very cool, a friend at the time, who's home always seemed a bit Yankie ( they had a fridge, washing machine and his mum had died blonde hair! which where I was brought up was pretty unusual then) summed it up by saying:
America - Coffee, gum, John Wayne!! yeah!
England - Tea, polite old ladies
So on that basis alone they should have had hit after hit, but their sound is different to the Shadows, The Ventures sound is more "head down and go for it" and along the way timing gets a bit lost as is clarity, The Shadows original image over here was of gritty coffee bars and post war Britain still a grim place to look at because of all the bombed out buildings still to be demolished and rebuilt, they had a new sound and a precision of style, they may have played similar tunes just in a different way.
Don't forget though that within a couple of years Beatlemania had started and The Shadows and Cliff's image changed from mean rebellious kids to cuddly family entertainers, and now it was the likes of The Rolling Stones that made your dad foam at the mouth.
Surf music in the USA didn't really go out of fashion until Hendrix and flower power.
And to us Brits on some of the later tracks with that bloody awful (and supposed to be sexy??) growl one of the guys kept doing was just plain cringeworthy, it was bad enough first time round with Roy Orbison on Pretty Woman but rehashed by The Ventures a number of years on - not for me!
50 years on and both bands have tracks I like and tracks I don't, but there are more Shadows tracks I like than Ventures - the reason? The Shadows playing expertise and technique seemed to improve with age, The Ventures style stayed the seem but seemed to get a bit sloppy.
One odd thing though, years back Hawaii 50 was a massive TV hit running for years, I only found out long after the show finished that it was a Ventures tune, now that has to be poor marketing on behalf of their management.
Geoff
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The Ventures style stayed the seem but seemed to get a bit sloppy.
Geoff, can you be more specific in 2 ways:
1)When you think this occur and
2)What specifically about the sound and/or playing.
Then I'll better be able to comment (or not). ;D
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A typo there Walt, seem should be same.
Re when the Ventures got sloppy can't really say I hadn't followed instro music for years, but got back into it 10 or so years ago and bought a lot of CDs some Ventures compillations amongst them and on the 3 disc Walk Don't Run set some of the tracks just seem as if they've lost their way a little, they sounded like re-recordings, not the originals.
On the other hand it could be that their style had changed to suit the Japan market where they are big.
When I heard them in the 60's it was Wow!! this set was just lack lustre - and that growl - just don't go there!!
Similar to over here elderly chaps ( like me ) who play Shadows tributes do the Shadows Walk (not me), it looked good on the then teenage Shadows in the late 50's early 60's but 50 years later, in my view, it's best left to history.
Keep twanging
Heoff
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Geoff,
Firstly, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by 'growl'? I can't recall any Ventures tune that has an Orbison growl it. There are hoots, hollers and sound effects on a lot of Ventures tracks, but nothing like the famous Orbison growl in 'Pretty Woman'....
It seems like you are basing your observations on a few complation CD's, and to be fair, I'd probably draw the same conclusion if that's all the material I had available to me. There are plenty of stale moments in the Ventures catalogue (mostly when they were cranking out 'theme' albums), but I don't feel they slagged off when it came to performance or that they were particularly sloppy. They did a nice job handling the material thrown at them. Granted, they may have sounded a little 'square' on some of the harder, bluesy, psychedelic material in the late 60's, but the playing was always solid. You're not going to get a sense of virtuosity listening to them cover "Hang On Sloopy" (LOL) but if you dig a little deeper and listen to the albums (espeically during the McGee/Durrill era when they were writing some great originals) you'll hear some amazing ensemble playing that is a far cry from 'The McCoy" ;) (Ventures fans will get that joke).
Another thing to consider, Nokie and Gerry were very accomplished guitarists when they joined the band, and while the did continue to grow as pickers (listen to either now, they are masters) they were good at playing just what the song called for at the time. They didn't really seem worried about showing off chops (which both men have in spades).
Lastly, let your ears be the judge: Listen to the Walk Don't Run (1960) LP, then The Ventures In Space ('64), then New Testament ('71). Hard to believe its the same group, but you'll have to acknowledge that they not only stayed fairly relevant, they improved as a band and individually as players.
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Well I guess I'll have to take your word for it, I only have a few compilation albums, which are transfered to my iPod and they play in my car, I've certainly heard the growl on more than one track, but as the iPod is locked away in the glove box it's hard to see which track is playing when you're driving.
There's nothing wrong with the Ventures but their style is different to The Shadows, but in all fairness my taste has broadened and if I'm really honest there are plenty of other guitarists I like as much if not more: Gilmore, Moore, Knopfler, Trout, Santana and then of course there's always that nice Mr Clapton then there's messrs Keef and Ronnie and my favourite live band to see every Christmas the one and only Quo
All the best
Geoff
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The Shadows did tour the States in 1959 with Cliff, even played Lubbock, TX which must have freaked out folk there when they saw Hank with a Strat. They released Apache on Atlantic, but Jorgan Ingman had the hit on Atco, Atlantic's sister label. I have often thought that Atlantic deliberately failed to promote the Shadows' version in order to throw Jerry a Wexler a hit on his Atco label. I thought the Ventures are playing live in England on the On Stage album? Was that just a lot of bunk? As for the Shadows vs. the Ventures, I love the Ventures (especially their Play Along records which as a teacher I appreciate). However, the Shadows had Jerry Lordan who wrote Apache and a number of other hits for them. They were also pretty good songwriters on their own (Cliff hits like Summer Holiday). The Ventures' songwriting never did much for me. I always thought they did better with covers. They also drifted into a formula mode towards the end of the 6ts (as would the Shadows).
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To the best of OUR knowledge, The Ventures (as a band) have never performed in UK.
Nokie performed in Amsterdam some years back and a DVD was released called Nokie Live at the Sunhouse.
It's long outofprint but if you can find a copy it's wellworthit.
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Greetings...newbie here.
I've been in contact with a Brit who's about the age when "Walk Don't Run" would have hit England's radio waves. I posted my cover of "Journey to the Stars" and his comment included the statement he was not familiar with the group....which I thought was....strange.
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Hi, I'm new here, feeling shocked after listening to the band play Don Wilson's last tour, in Japan. (On YouTube) The vocals were off-key, out of time and the guitar sound was poor, being reedy and thin. Sometimes Don sounded drunk, or ill.
I've been a fan since the early 60s, although preferring the Shadows.
Nokie Edwards on "I gotta woman" is beyond compare!
Geoff
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They were never as popular as the Shadows, but I liked them anyway, as with other good Guitar playing bands. Thats just my personal opinion anyway - Cheers Mike Kilner
South Yorkshire shadows club - UK..